Conversation with Niel

During my 18 or so years of life-drawing I have had many conversations about my work with fellow life-drawers, tutors, and friends. Very occasionally I have referred to these on my blog, but this is the first time I have posted an email conversation around a particular subject. It is with Niel Bally who tutors a variety of art courses at his studio in Talgarth in the foothills of the Black Mountains in Powys, Wales, which is within an hours drive of my home in the hills of Gwent. I first attended Niel's studio in 1917 (I started life-drawing in 2006 and became a two-handed drawer in about 2011).

This conversation took place between November 14th and 27th, 2024.

Dear Niel

That was good. Really good (Reference 3 days in November, and posted on this blog on November 13th as 'I didn't know I had a language') So, I have just posted my drawings on my blog with an observation about a conversation with Natalie, which needs time for reflection to comprehend its full meaning.

So much looking forward to December.

Ref my conversation with Natalie: I took with me a stack of old drawings, which I considered to be not particularly special (so I would probably throw them away at some time), and had a clean reverse side. As I took each sheet from my folio I glanced at the drawing on it. I gradually built up a realisation that there were significant similarities, particularly in my mark-making, between the old drawings and those I was now producing. 

I mentioned this to Natalie, showed her two examples, and commented to her that in looking back at early drawings I was identifying similarities to what I am now doing. Her response was so insightful. "It's the same with me, I look back at early work and conclude that 'I didn't know I had a language (then)'" We explored this connection between our past and our current art. And our conclusion is that there exists within each one of us a fundamental way of doing things which we are probably born with and will prevail regardless of the challenges, regardless of the pressures, regardless of influences, to change direction, i.e. 'We each have our own language!' But we take a long time to realise this.

Dear Bob

Very good to look through your blog. On the last 3 days I had no idea you had made so many. Then am I right that you added some older drawings as discussed in script ?

Anyway I enjoyed seeing all the folders and remembering much of the work and seeing some I must have missed . Lots of Annie . Yes you do have a language. One part of it is quite linear and another part is very concerned with form in space and the latter seems to be what underlies and informs.  Whether it’s convention I do like seeing the singular figures as intervals from the complex multiples , one feeds off the other.

Dear Niel
Thanks for your observations. All 19 are of Annie during the three days. Your comment that the singular figures at intervals from the complex multiples feeds off each other is a good one and appears to be a positive aspect of my current approach. I post all drawings on my blog regardless of their quality (in my terms) and whether I like them or not. And I know that this time over half of the 19 I am really pleased with.


Dear Bob

The blog is a really good idea . The last weekend was productive and some  really good quality drawing.
Remember last May you did a rear view  in ink with about  one inch brush marks That’s a language.

You can express form with thick width marks as well as a  0.7 nib both pure abstractions  except a line is not so abstract as a lot of the time it’s about division of the edge of form and space.

Dear Niel

Here are a few thoughts in relation to your comment that the 'rear view in ink with about one inch brush marks, That’s a language'. To me it is bold, clear, and its spontaneity means it has come from the heart. As a result the mark making is not contrived but in some way may be described as genuine. So this qualifies it for me as 'a language'. 

But I believe that as I move back and forth from the 'one inch brush marks' to the 'line drawing' a translation is taking place. Where, or how, this translation takes place is open for discussion. I would say that this all takes place deep within me, and that there is little if any consciousness involved. I have often talked on my blog about my process and particularly that I feel it is both therapeutic and meditative. Therapeutic in the sense that it is healing, contributes to my sense of well being and removes me from any negative thoughts about the world around me. Meditative, in the sense that as soon as I place myself before my easel and before the model then I enter a different perceptual world composed of a number of dialogues (from me to the model, from the model to me, from me into the space of the paper, from me to the marks which appear, and the feedback from those marks) which all combine together to create a 'deep state'. Confirmation of this is that I often, in fact almost every time, I just am unable to recall the act of making the drawing once I stand back to see what has appeared on my paper.

There then arises the question 'Is my line a language?' I think you are accepting that it can be when you say 'You can express form with thick width marks as well as a  0.7 nib both pure abstractions  except a line is not so abstract as a lot of the time it’s about division of the edge of form and space'. I would say that although I accept that there is no such thing as 'an outline' in Nature, I have always believed and maintained that my line does address (within my perception and thinking) the elements of 'shape', 'colour', 'texture', 'form', 'value' and 'space'. I am certain that others may claim the same; e.g. the entirely equal line of the Durer engraving, Ruskin's unvaried black outline and similarly the black line of Egon Schiele. But a line is not simply a line!  A line can be hard, black, soft, of various thicknesses and varied in itself. Above all for me as an architect the line plays a most significant role as I move back and forth between 2-dimensional representation and 3-dimensional interpretation. 

And finally, I wonder what your response is to something I read the other day in a paper on line-drawings: "Tone speaks to the emotions. Line speaks to the mind - or rather it speaks to the emotions through the mind by distilling the idea of the thing". My response is that tone and line are all about marks on paper, and that this is not a simple and straightforward issue and certainly not of a simple and clear distinction. In writing this I have just recalled my thoughts during my first and early visits to you. I felt quite uneasy as I saw that as a 'linearist' I contrasted and did not fit in with you, who I saw as a 'tonalist' (and 'colourist') In fact I rarely responded to your request to the group to pursue a particular technique or approach, e.g.today I want you to use inks with a brush. I just got on with my fine-liner pen. Gradually I felt brave enough to try your requests, but also I believe you acknowledged some of my approach, and at times have been very complementary. Thank you!  However, if one examines the 19 drawings from my last visit it is clear that I was jumping from line to tone, and was at times relating both in one drawing, perhaps with little distinction at times. It is clear to me that my art has benefited from my time with you, and whilst I get great satisfaction from producing a 'good drawing' I would say that it is my insights and understanding of how things appear on my paper together with increased awareness of the mechanisms and complexities of the perceptual and creative process that I find particularly rewarding. 

In the light of these notes I am now looking forward even more to December to see what will take place. And I am sure we may have a moment or two to follow up our thoughts.

 Dear Bob

Yes agree with you about the drawing process being intuitive and unselfconcsious   A concert piano player doesn’t have to look at their fingers, keyboard or score. It’s all about interpretation and expression.  Like drawing it starts in the mind and lands on the paper or keyboard.  It’s good to hear your thoughts from a practitioner’s side. Putting on classes is another mode. I suppose you become a voyeur and delve into other peoples work to see if you can help them out . I have some academic approaches but tend to break them down as I feel drawing is not just an academic exercise but the development of a persons sensibilities , feelings and intuition is more important.

The great thing about the activity is being lost in it , then you can step back and do critical analysis and see if you can steer it on, or develop it.  . You said someone said "Tone speaks to the emotions. Line speaks to the mind - 
That’s true. Tone creates mood and atmospheres largely associated with light , drama etc, I find line extraordinary. In terms of perception  It is pure  abstraction What is a line when its delineates or attaches itself to an object., but  most people do not give it a second thought ? Your one inch brush mark drawing fascinates me. Totally abstract , the marks are not there is reality but it still portrays and speaks.
Drawing below. Is by Jane in the last class. One of the great things about a group is the feed back end how everyone learns off eachother. Your drawings must have encouraged  Jane.. She then took it back and played with it You will notice she just hung it up like a shroud.( is it a shroud ?)   Her head is peeping out the top and both hands holding onto each corner. I was bold over by this transformation. You can read reams into this image The two figures look like they are wrestling or fighting to get out of  a paper bag. It’s a selfie and the  figures become her. Wonderful. In a sense a complete  fluke. Could you contrive this ?  No. But like the creative process it happens but more important is   could it lead ?

Line is a big discussion. If anyone is asked to draw something they will do it in line and this goes back to the cave man or even a child. . It’s second nature and few even give it a second thought or even question it. If you ask someone to draw something without using lines or shadin/ tone ,  then they would  get stuck. Line really depends on what informs it. So the great line draughtsmen and line drawers such  as Matisse , Picasso, Ingres,  Egon Schiel  are only great because 

of what informs their drawings and that required a lot of searching. You have that knowledge from the years you have spent drawing and designing . I find it very difficult to refine things to a pure line. In fact I have rarely tried.  I have admired Ben Nicholson for many years but I shy from his approach. I naturally do a mix of line and tone  and get preoccupied with  light and space, . Here is a drawing I did of St Davids  last week. Not great or perfected,  a sketch I suppose. I just did it. However , I think I got something to come through.  There is a fantastic landscape behind with big hills of rock , left overs from the glacial melt. I actually want to return and develop this subject.

Dear Niel

I like your drawing of St Davids very much. The architectural massing (form and space) is very strong, but the one quality I would never achieve is with light. The light sky over the distant hills contrasting with the deep shadows of the walls in the foreground. This gives great space and depth to the composition. So I note the significance of the mix of line and tone you refer to, and this gives me something to reflect upon and consider to take forward next week.

best wishes

Bob           

PS: I would very much like to post this conversation we have had on my blog. just as I have posted other insights into my process to record the story of my art. Hope you agree to this.

Dear Bob

Yes that’s fine by me you might need to edit it. Thanks for your comments on my drawing   The longer I am away from it the more I  appreciate it . at the time it like being in a boxing ring.

Dear Niel,

Just been reflecting again on 'the line and tone issue' and reminded myself that within my 19 responses to Annie last time there were two pieces of note.......... 

Firstly, the charcoal drawing which although is composed of lines of charcoal marks it is actually all about the search for the gesture of the pose and leaving a record of that search which makes the drawing. Highlight and tone seem to have emerged, but not by intention: 

Secondly, and this I think can be related to the ink brush buttock piece, but a much slower and much more conscious approach by using a block of softish black tinted charcoal to place in the tonal/shadows which were then softened with a tissue and then again emphasised with another application. One or two faint lines were introduced to suggest the upper outline of the pose, and for the eye lashes: 

So, I do depart from my line-only response, and perhaps these are some of my most fascinating pieces? Perhaps time to drop my self-imposed 'linearist' label. Similarly, in seeking a label, I have in the past described myself as a 'cubist'. In the future, I think I will just draw.

Till the next time,

Bob

My art on my smallholding

 

From my A5 note/sketch book:

 One or two notes during the three days in Talgarth:

My hands and feet are frequently acknowledged.

Sometimes our model dozes off.

After Gustave Courbet 'Origin of the World'

And here Annie is relaxing between poses......

 

 

 

 

"I didn't know I had a language"

These are the words of Natalie during a conversation we had at Niel Bally's three days of life-drawing. They refer to what I consider to be one of the most significant findings/recollections/insights from the three days. 

However, my previous posting recalls my intentions as I approached the three days, and described a fairly clear plan of work which I intended to follow. But I did say that, from experience, any plan is usually thrown out of the window once one enters the new situation. And this is basically what happened on this occasion. So, that is the second most significant aspect. Now back to the first:

I took with me a stack of old drawings, which I considered to be not particularly special (so I would probably throw them away at some time), and had a clean reverse side. As I took each sheet from my folio I glanced at the drawing on it. I gradually built up a realisation that there were significant similarities, particularly in my mark-making, between the old drawings and those I was now producing. 

I mentioned this to Natalie, showed her two examples, and commented to her that in looking back at early drawings I was identifying similarities to what I am now doing. Her response was so insightful. "It's the same with me, I look back at early work and conclude that 'I didn't know I had a language (then)'" We explored this connection between our past and our current art. And our conclusion is that there exists within each one of us a fundamental way of doing things which we are probably born with and will prevail regardless of the challenges, regardless of the pressures, regardless of influences, to change direction, i.e. 'We each have our own language!' But we take a long time to realise this.

DAY ONE

DAY TWO

  

DAY THREE

Tomorrow is another day....and I can't wait

Yes! I'm off to Talgarth to Niels Bally's studio for three days of life-drawing with a lovely and stimulating community of artists. I've been building up to this for a few days now, by looking back over recent works, the looking back many years (specially around 2013/14) to some of the techniques which I have since come to value. As a consequence I have assembled a box of materials, including pencils, fine-liner pens, thick graphite sticks, charcoals, etc. all mono-chromatic, but which I am to use together on the same drawing in a variety of ways. Now, all this appears as a plan, and as I well know from previous experience, any plan is immediately caused to be abandoned as most of the variables in the life-drawing situation are different and often unexpected, i.e. the` model, the poses set up by the convenor, the ambiance of the studio, how one feels after the journey from home, how one feels after the night before, which colleagues are there and how one interacts with them before starting the first pose, how one questions the relevance and appropriateness of one's own plans for the morning, etc., etc.

So what did I think about during the preceding days? Here are excerpts from my note book.................

October 30th 2024:

Life-drawing, 3 days at Talgarth....then in 2025 4x3days (life) and 1x3days (portrait). In parallel  I will continue with my 'Re-visiting programme'. Also I would like to try Angela's over in Brockweir, say for two days depending on who the model is - Is Penny there?

How to make the most of Niel's: 

1. my usual response is: some fine-liner pen but various other responses depending on what Niel is pushing, e.g. inks, tonal emphasis, lighting, etc. 

2. Look back on my archive and identify any particular 'events' which I feel may be worth pursuing. or revitalising and developing or responding to: e.g. heavy graphite stick, cross hatching, tinted charcoal, charcoal various.

A big question! Continue with the mono-chromatic, my comfort zone, OR engage with something different, e.g. colour, a wet medium?

My response.....

There is still loads of potential in the 'dry mediums of the mono-chromatic', and evolving my art beyond such aspects as: superimpositioning, transparency, morphing, and my aspects of cubism. AND I have the confidence in myself, now, that I can just 'go-for-it', i.e. project my reaction on to my paper without  inhibition - using my familiar/known tools/media, BUT into the unknown...........allowing the unexpected to happen.

I've been looking back thro' my blog, and recording my findings by photographing them on my phone (I can consistently refer to these during the three days if I wish to). 

This is a summary: a) squiggle drawing, b) part of a pose (even 1/2 portrait of Martin), remainder fading with soft boundaries, c) tonal drawings with squiggles, d) Quartets (12 November 2018).

Fairly certain I would like to emphasise 'multi-medium drawing', i.e. fine-liner, thick graphite, charcoal, pencil, black/grey tinted charcoal......ALL-IN-ONE.

So, Day One: quickies: one in each medium. Day Two: starting to emphasise multi-medium. Day Three: A long drawing, utilising multi-media, whilst thinking about what I'm doing whilst I'm doing it. 

However: in the past my best works have usually been quick and spontaneous! Food for thought.

Here are a few of the images from my past which I found particularly relevant:

A reflection on my fine-liner pen line drawings....

 “Art is a line around your thoughts.” – Gustav Klimt

By drawing I am helping myself to see.........

 "I have learned that what I have not drawn, I have never really seen, and that when I start drawing an ordinary thing, I realize how extraordinary it is, sheer miracle." -Frederick Franck

Many years ago, in 2015, my very dear friend and life-drawing colleague, Marianne Hvass, gave to me a copy of Frederick Franck's wonderfully inspiring book 'Zen Seeing, Zen Drawing: Meditation in Action'.  Since then I have taken this book with me on many trips, alongside my recordings in my A5 sketch books, including to India and Nepal, and across Botswana, the Kalahari desert and Namibia, and more recently to Roman sites along the north coast of Africa, and to my Camino to Santiago de Compostela. I will cherish the support it gives me as in March next year I travel the 600 miles down the Nile to eventually witness and explore the history and archaeology of the Egyptian contribution to our classical cultures. 

Marianne was from Denmark and spent many years in Wales during which we attended life-drawing classes together, after which we spent time together discussing our art. She was so sadly taken from us with a devastating illness a few years ago. 

My act of drawing...........

 "It gives me such a sense of peace to draw; more than prayer, walks, anything." -Sylvia Plath